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Author Topic: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137  (Read 4994 times)

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Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2019, 01:11:08 AM »
I've recently heard from Visconti that Bertiaux basically made most of that up to sell books, while his actual system of magic was basically an oral tradition in a small circle of people.

This would not be surprising. His Voudon Gnostic Workbook was obviously missing the keys.

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But, back to H&J, I got some interesting info in ZID; nothing really theoretical or anything - just practical instruction on how to go about the tesseract. It seems like that'll be my first undertaking, as instructed, before I even start studying all this stuff.

I have less practical experience than I should. I have played with geometrical magic. The results were inconclusive.

Frater I.S.I

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2019, 02:21:09 AM »
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Is there any reason to believe, either theoretical or practical, that Bertiaux is correct?

This is a good question Satyr, here's how i'll frame my answer. I believe there is a connection to Da'ath being the core of the Cube and by extension the core of the Tesseract via its correspondence with Tav, Saturn, The Universe, Death in various systems such as Sefer Yetzirah and by extension Hawk and Jackal, which then we also find in Bertiaux's like I mentioned but also within Grant's comprehension of the atavistic current concerning Da'ath and 333
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Also as you pointed out, the Choronzon Club of Russell and his work of the Cube (Roman Hybrid Cube and Chinese cube) does render the literal existence of the tunnels. Although let me be clear, I do not claim that this is an objective connection insofar as there are a multiplicity of ontologies existing simultaneously. For instance, the Oklahoma Coven of Hawk and Jackal, in 1999 considering their posts, would vibrate a different letter at the core of the tesseract for each different working and outcome desired, rendering the 'gate' to be different everytime.
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We also frequently have worked what we termed a Merkabah Tesseract. It is like a regular turning of a Tesseract but the group mind concentrates on a letter of the Hebrew alphabet to pair with the letters used in the turning. The effect is more powerful Tesseract and it has some attributes of the group mind trying to work with the Multiverse to cause some directed change. However the Multiverse is a willful creature, She will do as she wills, but she is open to suggestion. During the Holy Days of Thelema we will be doing Merkabah Tesseract everyday of the 22-day cycle. We will start with the letter alpha on the Spring Equinox and work our way through the Hebrew alphabet with the final day, the Third Day of the Writing of the Book of the Law with Tau.


In the Sefer Yetzirah, and the conception of letters as the cube of space, Tav within the double letters is the inner core of the seven directional sides and of the cube as you know. That was implicitly executed in the methodology of the tesseract in H&J, insofar as it is the final letter uttered rendering the tesseract in vision. The fact that it is at the core and that by that methodology, it is the utterance which permit the quantum jump, or rather the destruction and death of Universe A, could possibly demonstrate how theoretically or practically Da'ath can be the portal. That is, of course, true insofar as we can correspond Da'ath to Saturn. I think it can be corresponded if we take into account that Da'ath is the child of Chokmah+Binah making it the black sun, also that Da'ath is the womb of Binah

I also think that considering Da'ath to be a bridge of the Abyss, it can easily fit as a gateway or an actualization of the veil which is passed through a rite of passage. Which if we analyze the crossing as a Katabasis like we see in a multitude of other mythologies (Ishtar's descent, Odysseus's katabasis, Osiris' katabasis, Dionysus' katabasis, Christ's descent and resurrection, Hermes's rescuing of Persephone, Jonah and the belly of the whale etc)  that is, corresponding to a descent in the feminine matrix to be reborn as a conquering knight, then we can make the case that Da'ath is that specific matrix through which the magician undergo that death and rebirth mythological journey.

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I've recently heard from Visconti that Bertiaux basically made most of that up to sell books, while his actual system of magic was basically an oral tradition in a small circle of people.
He also told me that. But then it raises a good question, is fiction unworkable practically speaking?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 02:29:52 AM by Frater I.S.I »

Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2019, 03:08:59 AM »
I also think that considering Da'ath to be a bridge of the Abyss,

This seems to be a misunderstanding of both, to be honest.

Frater I.S.I

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2019, 03:54:22 AM »
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This seems to be a misunderstanding of both, to be honest.
Let me reinstate that I meant "I also think that considering Da'ath can be a bridge of the Abyss"
Insofar as it doesn't negate it's simultaneous origin as the abyss itself, and the dweller.

--

Beside the valid argument of Da'ath not being a gateway for the tunnels.
What do you think of the application of the Tesseract I proposed in my Yi Ching working?
How was your work with Frater 137 at the time?

Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2019, 02:53:06 PM »
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This seems to be a misunderstanding of both, to be honest.
Let me reinstate that I meant "I also think that considering Da'ath can be a bridge of the Abyss"
Insofar as it doesn't negate it's simultaneous origin as the abyss itself, and the dweller.

If knowledge could bridge the Abyss, then anyone could just think their way across. This seems to be a contradiction. Therefore either Da'ath isn't really Da'ath, or Da'ath cannot be a bridge.

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Beside the valid argument of Da'ath not being a gateway for the tunnels.
What do you think of the application of the Tesseract I proposed in my Yi Ching working?

For me, Yijing is a practice. It's also the one place I can plausibly turn for advice. So, though I seldom consult it these days, if ever, I must respect Mr Yi.

I don't have an opinion on other uses.

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How was your work with Frater 137 at the time?

Like oil and water. We enjoyed a certain mutual respect, but we were never very close. He had no interest in Enochian and I had little interest in Egypt. His geometric work seemed to be rooted in a Cartesian coordinate system, creating a conceptual disconnect I (a card-carrying Fullerite) found difficult to bridge. We were in different lineages, so that didn't help either. We seemed to like each other, for the most part.

Our opening of the 19th æthyr pissed him off. Ebony was very Rose Croix, so we ended up on opposing sides during the subsequent divorce. He chose poorly, of course, and I think it ended badly for him.

After Ebony died, he lingered for a while before moving on. He did me a big favor and I consider us even.

For the record, I cannot imagine Ebony smiling upon a Tesseract-Qlippoth mashup.

Frater I.S.I

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2019, 04:33:48 PM »
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For the record, I cannot imagine Ebony smiling upon a Tesseract-Qlippoth mashup.

Let me reinstate the meaning behind my first post on the voltigeur. I was more so proposing a theory upon the connection with the tesseract working, or the four dimensional hypercube, in regards to the methodology of the voltigeur since it implies a quantum jump on both parts. Which is explicitly discussed within Bertiaux's system, discussed by Grant and implicitly impregnating Russell's cube working. Not precisely a Tesseract-Qlippoth mashup, beside if we can even categorize this as essentially Qlippothic or not. The working of the cube and of the tesseract is a very ancient, even atavistic in itself which predate Hawk and Jackal, notably in Dee's writing.
That being said, the quantum physics aspect of the working as well as the intricacies of the tesseract working of H&J is its own.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that Ebony said explicitly that Hawk and Jackal was an Inner Order and thus was decentralized. Multiple coven sprung out in the late 90s, all of them worked differently within the system and some would even give up the thelemic egyptian witchcraft of the system entirely. I don't see how expending on the system as well as making it visible on the cyberspace could not run well with Ebony.
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Hawk & Jackal is entirely self-defined. It is a Thelemic Order formed on principles given in the Holy Books of Thelema.
Hawk & Jackal is an Inner Order not an Outer Order.
Membership status is changeable at Will, and at the sole discretion of the member.
No lists of members, other than patrons, are maintained though there are bodies in various places with regular activities.
None has the right to admit or expel anyone, not even I Ebony Anpu the Founder.

Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2019, 05:21:19 PM »
Which is explicitly discussed within Bertiaux's system, discussed by Grant and implicitly impregnating Russell's cube working.

This gets at the heart of my complaint. We must accept that Grant or Bertiaux possessed special knowledge regarding the Abyss. We cannot agree that they were masters, so we cannot agree that they didn't spend their magic points chasing metaphysical swamp gas.

Keith418 was utterly smitten with Russell's cube. I cannot see that it got him anywhere worth going. The alarming aspect is that it did not appear to give him any useful insight into the Yi.

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The working of the cube and of the tesseract is a very ancient, even atavistic in itself which predate Hawk and Jackal, notably in Dee's writing.

Then shouldn't we concentrate on Dee's system instead?

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Furthermore, it is my understanding that Ebony said explicitly that Hawk and Jackal was an Inner Order and thus was decentralized.

So stipulated. This issue is separate from the Tesseract and Da'ath bridging the Abyss.

azrael2393

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2019, 08:05:33 AM »
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I've recently heard from Visconti that Bertiaux basically made most of that up to sell books, while his actual system of magic was basically an oral tradition in a small circle of people.

Let me expand on what I actually said: the vast majority of Bertiaux's published material is not to be intended as factual, but mythical.
The very same applies to Grant.

I believe there is a great deal of worth to be found in working with mythical constructs, but, at the same time, if you read up their systems and expect "lurid experiences in the slimly anti-light of the Deep Ones", you might be in for a big disappointment.

I was never a direct disciple of Grant, albeit I worked on the Italian translations of both "Against The Light" and "Cults of the Shadow" and privately corresponded with him during that time (early 2000s). But my direct experiences with Michael Bertiaux (which despite what you might read online, especially Frater Barabbas' exposé, never implied homosexual advances of any kind) taught me how the Master Aquarius always had a very clear pulse on what the great unwashed* wanted at the times, and gave them exactly that in order to generate income.
His actual teachings are much more philosophical and theological in nature.

* = stealing your style, Satyr! ;_)

Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2019, 02:44:21 PM »
Let me expand on what I actually said: the vast majority of Bertiaux's published material is not to be intended as factual, but mythical.
The very same applies to Grant.

I support this statement.

Outside the Circles of Time was a great read and I have the first edition. But it was obviously speculative fiction. I fear there is potential, if not for actual harm, at least for the wasting of valuable time.

Frater I.S.I

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2019, 08:02:43 PM »
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But it was obviously speculative fiction. I fear there is potential, if not for actual harm, at least for the wasting of valuable time.

I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Applying this logic would negate every single account of mythology across the ages and throughout civilizations as a valuable tool for the great work. Furthermore, abrogating the nature of countless of rituals within the western esoteric traditions on the only ground that they spring from fictionalized mythological stories.

There is a great creative outlet to be sought in fiction.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 08:14:09 PM by Frater I.S.I »

Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2019, 03:23:33 AM »
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But it was obviously speculative fiction. I fear there is potential, if not for actual harm, at least for the wasting of valuable time.

I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Applying this logic would negate every single account of mythology across the ages and throughout civilizations as a valuable tool for the great work.

You are free to disagree with whatever you wish, but applying “this logic” would do no such thing. The fictions beloved by Kenny Grant and his followers are not “every single account of mythology across the ages and throughout civilizations”.

After thirty years of observation, I find Grant's influence pernicious. It is so very easy to become lost upon the path. Anyone is free, of course, to stray as far, and as often, and in whatever manner they please. But encouraging others to stray into some Lovecraftian psycho-sexual mire is irresponsible, at best. That seems to have been a large part of Grant's life's work.

A valuable tool in the context of the Great Work sets the feet of the aspirant firmly on the path and fixes their gaze steadily upon Mount Abiegnus. It prepares them for their rendezvous with the divine. If, after they have attained, conjuring the spawn of Yog Sothoth into visible appearance is their True Will™, then who am I to argue with Universe? Until then, I am not impressed.

Frater I.S.I

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2019, 05:12:39 AM »
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You are free to disagree with whatever you wish, but applying “this logic” would do no such thing. The fictions beloved by Kenny Grant and his followers are not “every single account of mythology across the ages and throughout civilizations”.

I can very much agree with that Satyr, do not get me wrong here. It is but a single iteration of a vast network of unconscious Art.

Satyr

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2019, 02:13:55 PM »
I can very much agree with that Satyr, do not get me wrong here. It is but a single iteration of a vast network of unconscious Art.

So you agree that Grant encouraging people to bear their necks to Choronzon was a bad thing? That encouraging students to go chasing metaphysical swamp gas before they are adepts is irresponsible?

Do you agree that Lovecraft's fiction was pathologic, the product of deep and unresolved racism and sexual repression? And that anyone desiring to reify such things is likely as disturbed as Lovecraft and should not be fucking around with magic until they get their shit sorted?

Frater I.S.I

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2019, 06:28:14 PM »
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So you agree that Grant encouraging people to bear their necks to Choronzon was a bad thing? That encouraging students to go chasing metaphysical swamp gas before they are adepts is irresponsible?
No, I agree that some parts of Grant's writings are indeed not every single account of mythology across the ages and throughout civilizations and I wouldn't label any iteration of Choronzon, Certainly not Grant's conception of this archetypal motif, as "bad" since that would be falling into dichotomic subjective and ontological perceptions of morals.

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Do you agree that Lovecraft's fiction was pathologic, the product of deep and unresolved racism and sexual repression?
I agree with this sentence without a doubt and that cannot be debated.

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And that anyone desiring to reify such things is likely as disturbed as Lovecraft and should not be fucking around with magic until they get their shit sorted?
Although I disagree with this since if we apply this logic, any act of greek magick or greek cultual worship would fall into the same category insofar as greek mythos promulgate similar themes as well as rape. Yet there are many greek magical practitioners who aren't as 'disturbed' as the intrinsic themes of the mythos, and/or the author(s), they re-actualize.
It is safe to take on a grayer approach and understand the multiplicity of possibilities and that no expressions of practice is a monolith.

Nubti

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Re: Hawk and Jackal system from Ebony Anpu - Frater 137
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2019, 09:19:40 PM »
I wouldn't label any iteration of Choronzon, Certainly not Grant's conception of this archetypal motif, as "bad"

Choronzon isn't archetypal. It's not a generalized, abstract, idea of a phenomenon.
It's not a 'concept' you can manipulate and work with in the abstract, like "King", or "Magus", or "Trickster".
Choronzon is something else, something significantly more real than most people think - and they fall for it all the god damn time.

And yes, it's absolutely bad. It's bad for the operator, and everyone around them. If anything, I'd go as far as saying that it's precisely the root cause of the large-scale evils we're experiencing as a species. And while that may sound hyperbolic, once you realize what Mr. C. is, you'll get it.

It is safe to take on a grayer approach and understand the multiplicity of possibilities and that no expressions of practice is a monolith.

No, it really isn't. There are two things here. Understanding multiple possibilities - sure, no problem. Grayer approach? Hell no. That's the reason why I was stuck in limbo for so long. To be unable to make a decision is death. A wrong decision is better than none, the vast majority of the time. Pick something. Commit to it. If it doesn't work, change your mind. But trying to stay in the middle is precisely the sort of garbage 'trying to stay on the middle pillar' results in.

A lack of range.

As for 'expressions of practice' - you've got that reverse. The practice is the expression. The question is 'what of?'